Intro
Faysal
Hey, Tamara,
how are you?
Tamara Fraser
I’m good. How are you doing?
Faysal
I am very good. Thank you very much. Very excited. Well, thanks for inviting me to do this. And I’m very excited for coming on.
Just to bring this back up, it’s one of the things that we’ve really wanted to discuss was mentorship.
Tamara Fraser
Yes. And I know we’ve touched on it a little bit, and you made some really good points. So I want you to make those points again.
Faysal
Yes, no, that’s, that’s a good point. Obviously, I forget how we came across a topic, but we always have deep and meaningful conversations, obviously. And one of the things that came out to our mind was mentorship. What does that mean for you? And just to give a bit of background on one of the things that I mentioned was someone who is very close to me, who I came across in my life very early on. His name is Martin and I met this person in my gym when I was 20. And we’ve become amazing friends ever since. At the time he was in his late 40s. And, you know, I am someone who migrated to the EU, to the UK in my early teens. So I’m when I was 20, I was still pretty much new to the country, a lot of cultural norms I didn’t naturally know, and I grew up in a working-class neighborhood, you know, where my parents or mom were making ends meet when you have a lot of money and you really had sort of try and make sure you’re focused on survival and make sure you’re focusing on making sure you’re pulling through in life and, and not getting distracted and, and be led astray in some extent. So what I learned is that that person has had a huge impact on my life. He’s probably by far the one person that has helped shape my path in life in terms of my life choice, in terms of my career, in terms of my aspirations. And our friendship we just talked about a lot. I was this kid who pretty much only listen to hip hop and rap and live in London, and I hang out my friends around the corner shops and, and play football and, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but my exposure globally into wider things was very, very limited. So come, this person who, you know, obviously has led a little bit of life and through him, I learned about 60s music and Jimi Hendrix and Dusty Springfield and Nina Simone and learned about world cinema and Latin movies and Korean movies and read books by Great Green and, and just learned about things that just you don’t have the time to get into that because you know, you’re only 20 years old. So I had an opportunity where a world knowledge was opened in front of me. And I was asking question after question. Where was there or What was the artist like when they were alive, what was the story and, and i just was hungry for information. And I would travel I remember and Rome. And around that time it was almost like a Renaissance period and Paris and went to the Louvre and went to Barcelona and it was a period of five to six years where my wall was just expanded so incredibly to the point where you know, I just felt enriched beyond imagination and different foods and different kinds of music and different dances and cultures and
Tamara Fraser
Was this because of Martin and like, how did you end up meeting him and getting introduced to all these things?
Faysal
Eventually when we become friends and we were hanging out and we would work out in the gym quite a bit. And basically what would happen is we would go for coffees afterward Or just hang out. we eventually became friends. And we lived in the same neighborhoods as well. So what would happen is whenever I would hang out with this person, I asked him about things. Because you know, culturally, if you imagine, as an African kid, there’s a lot of things that I would have missed. You know, I moved to the UK in the late 90s. So there’s a lot of things would not have culturally come across. So I’ll be asking questions about what was London like in 1990? What was the world like in the 80s when he lived in these certain neighborhoods? So there’ll be all these types of questions they’ll be very intrigued and want to ask about, but more impressively, this guy had an incredible collection of Bibles and incredible collection of books, of novels, of disk, of just things that he accumulated from traveling because he was always obviously someone who was hungry for knowledge himself. So when I would go and visit his home, It was like a library of things, of Music, of authors, of cinema and You know from Emma Dover movies in Spain Korean movies, I would just come across all of this stuff and I was just want to know more and ask more questions and learn more. And every week you will be telling me, you should listen to his album. I was like Okay, what is it. And I would listen to an artist like I don’t know from the 60s like Curtis Mayfield, for example, who I would have never have come across and I just love that album. Or you tell me about the Jimi Hendrix Experience and I would listen to that album for a week. So he was very much enjoying culturally come across someone who’s very different to him. Right? And me basically coming across this completely different mindset, different attitudes. And what that has done for me, is it made me realize the world is big. There’s so much to see, there’s so much to explore. There’s so much to enjoy. There’s so many cultures, so many experiences. And from there on, I just had this bug for traveling, this bug for trying new things and how I have a policy of I’ll try anything once. Just would you want to go here? I’ll go Yep. Do you want to try this? Yep. Do you want to go to this club? Yes.
Tamara Fraser
And I think that’s great. And that’s why we’re good friends too. Because, you know, we kind of have that same that, that same mentality and that same value. You know, I love traveling too. I love trying new things. And I could see, you also…, there’s times where you’ll send me things like, Oh my god, you need to I think he does it the other day, you need to listen to this, watch this YouTube video or listen to this album or do that it’s those same influences.
Faysal
Yes, absolutely. And one thing I’ve learned is the world is bigger than North London. My neighborhood The world is bigger than London, the world is bigger than, you know, the UK. There’s just so much to do and see. And in the subsequent years, you know, I traveled to the Caribbean to Brazil to Africa to Asia to the most of Europe and, and I was just literally just go into bars and watching people dance flamenco in South Spain and eating tapas or having a coffee in, in northern Italy somewhere I was just wanting to do. I just wanted to see. I just wanted to learn and, and that has really helped shape my view of the world. And it made me realize actually as human beings like you know, we, we are all very different, but we’re all the same. And I that helped sort of make me more adaptable in the sense that I can converse with different peoples. I can talk about wine or foods from Colombia or, and understand because quite often if you come from a particular part of the world and you stay there, you might have an isolated view of the world, and one that can result into if you’re a little bit hesitant to talk to some people that have different, you know, be more hesitant to engage with people that are different.
Tamara Fraser
And I think with what’s going on in the times, it’s really important that we become more worldly. And we are able to engage with people that, you know, are different. Different cultures have different views of certain things. And I think that is really what is lacking. Especially Look at me as an American. Most Americans don’t even travel, you know, when I travel, and I meet people, and they say, Where are you from? And I say, the US, they just they’re like, oh, wow, you know, and there’s a lot of people who have not met Americans because they don’t travel, and especially black Americans, because even worse than Americans not traveling, and a lot of black people don’t travel because for them, it’s like, it doesn’t seem like a thing that they do.
Faysal
Yes, no, I think I think that’s a good point. And you’ll have to try and push yourself to try and to potentially see the world for all of the opportunities to learn and try and experience and explore. So that’s one side of what I believe this person helped me in terms of my growth intellectually, in terms of the world. I was just, I can’t tell you how every day when we’re hanging out us 10, 20, 30 questions. What about this one? Because you know, he was born in like the late 50s I would think and I would ask what was it like growing up in London in the 70s and he would tell me about all of the experiences or the clubs all of the things he’s done. So that’s one thing. The learning the exploring, the trying new things that the learning about the world. The second aspect of what I think was even more profound for me is about personal growth. One thing I have noticed Martin and he still is he’s very resolute in his opinions. Very resolute and very focused. And he’s very self-assured. And obviously, that’s something that you develop over time. So he knew who he was. He knew what he stood for. And he was, you know, he was a liberal, left-leaning guy he stood for, you know, justice and fairness for all he was an atheist. And he knows and he just, he was very forthright about what he wanted in life. So, where I was this person who was still figuring out where they belong in the world, right? And he was very self-assured because he’s developed himself. So I would have doubts and questions of, you know, maybe I shouldn’t do this. And he would be telling me No, this is your right. You’ve got an ask for that. Or sometimes when there was an issue with work, and I wasn’t quite sure if I’m being overlooked for a promotion, or if I should do this, he’ll be like, No, you have to ask for this. You have to say this is yours. So he helped me in a sense understand what you are entitled to as a human being. What’s your right. What you should not be, basically hesitant about, but not,
Tamara Fraser
yeah, what you deserve and what not
Faysal
yeah, what you deserve. And that sort of almost brashness of, because, you know, I, I’m an ethnic person who came or was thrust into a western world and you know, sometimes when you don’t see people who look like who are pioneers and running companies and running TV channels, you sometimes feel like, you know, you don’t have the right to ask for something, or you don’t have the right to be somewhere or you don’t have the right to, to stand in a certain space, standing with mine and hanging out when I realized that actually, you have a right to say no, I belong here. You have the right say no, I deserve this, or this is what’s rightfully mine. And all the time I realized, actually, don’t hold your tongue when it comes to something that you deserve. Don’t hesitate when it comes to something that is rightfully yours, and That sort of push has helped me fundamentally try and really be more forward-thinking more gung ho. But when it comes to some things that are mine. A lot of my friends don’t necessarily have the opportunity to be shaped and pushed by someone who tells them, hey, you have the right to ask for this. And that has helped me up, fortunately, to go forward. And when it comes to career, when it comes to, you know, where I want to see my future when it comes to things that I expect for myself, and, you know, now when I look back, you know, the people that I grew up with, when I was younger, I don’t know any of them that has left, the neighborhoods had moved to Australia and then moved to Dubai. And just, and I think part of that I’m not saying that you know, their life is any lesser than what I have. But I feel like I helped build a level of resolve and confidence that has helped me guided me in my career. You know.
Tamara Fraser
So I think when I think about that, because, you know,, I’ve never really had a mentor. And now that you’re mentioning all this stuff, I’m trying to think because, you know, I’ve done the same thing where I’ve moved around a lot in the world, like living in Australia and now living in Dubai, you know, and really try to build up a certain life for myself, but I don’t think I’ve really had anyone in the back, I’m really thinking about it. I don’t think I’ve had anyone in the background shaping me and helping me to get to that place. I’ve never had a mentor. And it’s something that I’ve always wanted because there are still points in my life where I don’t know how to handle certain situations. And you know, when especially if it comes to career, and especially, you know, being a woman and being a black woman, and it’s like you sit there and I was having a conversation with my friend the other day to where she was drawing up a contract for her, her job, or potential job, and, you know, they’re like, she was like, Oh, they want to pay me this much, you know, should I ask for more because I was making more at my previous job and I’m like, if you’re a man, a man would approach it this way, you know, but it’s just all these things that we especially as women, we don’t necessarily understand. And sometimes we question, you know, should I ask for more money? Am I worth more, we tend to, you know, hold back a lot on things and it’s always good to have that figure, male, female, whatever to like, help you and to guide you? But again, it’s, I feel like you You also got lucky in finding that because, for years, I’ve been looking for a mentor and, you know, sometimes when I was younger, I’d reach out to people who are I really admired on LinkedIn but no one answered me back, you know, my first bout of rejection, but I think it’s really important to like grow that community and an offer and especially for you because it is something that you’ve experienced and it’s really helped to, you know, paying that forward to someone else to you know, someone in their 20s, no young 20s and introducing them to all the different aspects of life. And even for me, I can actually look at you as a mentor too, because you are a pretty worldly person. And I know you, we both introduce each other to certain things write me more of like spiritual voodoo magic, as you call it. But yeah, I think it’s really important to have that because I, from my perspective, I felt like through my 20s I was really lost. Like I felt really lost and I didn’t know who to turn to to help me and guide me, and it’s like, it took me years and years to really figure it out. It wasn’t until my late 20s that I really was like, Okay, I’m going to travel, I’m going to do this, this and this and really start to change my life. But you know, that could have happened earlier in life, and I could have been maybe further in life by now. Um, so I think that’s really important.
Faysal
And this is a good point to emphasize. I think in the getting ahead in life, it’s because one thing you mentioned is that a lot of people in their 20s are lost. I mean, that’s a given because you’re still figuring yourself outruns a lot of homeless going around. And when you also come from an immigrant background, on top of not how you’re trying to figure yourself out, you’re almost there’s a sometimes look, situations where you’re not assured where you belong in this country, because you’re still figuring out this society, this community and you figure it out, you know, Do I have the right to speak up the same as what I would call him, you know, in brackets and natives are the people who were there before you in this country or much longer. So that’s a double whammy. And it’s fundamentally important to, you know, to I just feel like for all of the kids who have are struggling with identity and their early years on top of that coming from, and potentially an immigrant or refugee background, where they’re also not sure about who they are, from an identity perspective, or there where they belong, because I’ll be honest, you know, I come from, you know, a war-torn country. You know, my background is Somali, you know, and the, reality of that is that I left my home, I left my country, I left my identity, I had to call someone, I was uprooted somewhere new. And I had to learn the language, the culture, the norms on all of that, right. And that is Self will mean that you are not sure about certain things, you’re hesitant. You’re doubtful. And, and that coupled with being a young person, that is, that is a lot to deal with like you’re already losing in life because other people have got a head start ahead of you. So no, unfortunately, not everybody gets the opportunity to have mentorship. But you know, I do hope and pray that you know, all kids get the opportunity to be given that guidance that direction and I, I think of an example of in one of my jobs in back in London, my home.
I was working for a media agency and you know, you work for media agency Tamara, you know, sometimes they can be cutthroat and, you know, very cutthroat and they’re not everybody’s expendable. So, we went through a period of a huge expansion, a lot of client wins, a lot of hiring. And then obviously, they realized then at one point they need to balance the books. So at that same time, I got a promotion to digital manager. And when I got a promotion to a digital manager, they said, oh, we’re going to have to pause all high and pay rises and pause any sort of salary increases are going to balance the books. And they’ll do and they’re told me, all right, you’d be promoted to a manager in August, you’re going to get your pay increase. And back in the UK, it was an increased big increase, because the jump is quite significant. So I was going to get 10,000 pounds increase in annual salary, which is a lot. So they said your increase in salary will kick in September, nothing happened and I was speaking to General Manager and they had my department always come in, you know, there’s this issue on there’s that issue. Then September nothing happens. And I was very happy. I’ve got the manager title. I was doing my job. October. Nothing happened in November. What’s going on? No, we still need to do X, Y, and Z. December. Nothing’s happening. And I’m like, Oh, you know, we know what’s going on guys, look, we know we need to. So you know, you can see how they’re how things are unfolding. A lot of people were disgruntled and unhappy and just moved on and they realized that they’re being overlooked for promotion and pay rises. Still, I’d sort of kept quiet. I was like, Alright, it’s gonna happen. And I’m going to get my money once they said once we just passed this hurdle. So things then came into January. And they said, All right, look, your pay rise has been approved. Right? But you’re going to get the lower end of the scale of the pay rise. Right? Because you know, there’s a scale in terms of how much you’d get for that manager position. So initially, they’re promising, For example, 35 k, they said no, you’re only gonna get like 32 K, which is the bottom end of the scale. And not only that, we’re not going to backdate the salary increase. So for August until January, they said, Okay, we’re not going to backdate and on top of those You’re going to get the lower end of the bracket or so I was like, a bit stunned. You know, obviously, because I’m naive, sometimes I eventually figured out obviously, you know, they were stringing me along, you know, nothing was gonna happen. And now this is it. We just wanted to balance the book. So I was a bit torn and you know, sometimes you just think, bite your time, take your money and walk away or whatever. So I went on how to catch up with my friend Martin. And he’s been in the corporate world for 20 years before me, you know, so he knows how things are on there. And he said not they’re not being unfair. He said to me what you need to do, and said to me, You need to go back in there, you need to speak with the head of the department or your line manager, you need to say to them that you need your salary backdated. And he needs the salary increase to the amount agreed. And if they don’t do so, you will go to HR and start what they call a grievance process. And I was like, Okay, I had no idea about any of this. So I went in, and I went in and I spoke to my head of my department, and I said to him, Look, this is what I’m expecting. This is what I agreed on and If this doesn’t happen, and if that doesn’t get approved, I’m going to HR and I will start a grievance process. And my manager freaked out. She said okay, Just hold on. Before you do that, let me figure it out. Let me figure something out. I said look, this is what I’m, this is what I agreed on. This is what I’m expecting second, okay, okay. You went and spoke to a general manager, who I spoke to a few times and then he said, Look, he said, Are you sure you have once you do this grievance HR thing, there’s no going back please hold off. And then the situation escalated and then the head of HR came to me and their tone completely changed. And the head of HR was like, oh my I’ve had the story. I’m really sorry about what happened. You know, you’ve been doing a job for four months getting on with it being professional and this must have been so hard on you. This will get sorted this should not have happened to you. So they backdated everything and they gave me a check with the amount that was due to me for the entire four-month and one pay off and the other to my paycheck.
Tamara Fraser
But isn’t that so sad? Especially because they know, you know, people when you are in your 20ss, and you’re young, and the fact that companies like this can just take advantage of you thinking, you know, they don’t know any better, like, we can do whatever and they have to accept it as is because, again, people don’t have that mentorship or that guidance where they can act. You know, sometimes people just accept things as is, and they don’t find it. It’s not like we can really, it’s a hard thing to Google. How do I handle this situation and Google to give you a straight answer, right? So it helps a knowing someone who’s been through that and knows what to ask for. It sucks they don’t teach this in college. in university.
Faysal
Yes, absolutely. And I think um, you know, obviously, this was a specific work-related example, but the gist of it is that you, we all need that reassuring voice that tells you you got this. This is what you should be doing. You’re doing good. You’re so you know, you hear that terminology. A lot within nowadays within the context of meditation, the voice that that is your champion that tells you you’ve got this. But that voice should also come in the form of support for people who are figuring things out, as they’re growing up. It’s in the form of mentorship, whether it’s in the form of a workshop, or, you know, whether it’s in the form of, you know, a support network, or whatever it is that outside support that tells if you’ve got this or the knowledge and expertise to say, here’s how it’s been done. Here’s what you should be doing that is so important.
Tamara Fraser
I think, you know, we touched on this where I said, You know, I feel like my brother, so my oldest brother who’s 11 years older than me, has kind of become that type of person in my life. So because we’re so we have such a big gap in an age when I was younger, or we didn’t necessarily have a relationship because imagine like you’re in your 20s and then your sister’s like a little Teen preteen you don’t really want anything to do with them. But I think as we got older and as I got into my 20s and him in his 30s and now you know, I’m in my 30s he’s in his 40s like our relationship has really grown. And I remember, you know, more from a personal standpoint when I was traveling through Central and South America and going through my whole relationship drama and you know, down to the breakup and all that shit that was happening. My brother was there for me. I will give my brother a lot of credit for helping me get through such a tough time. How did my life selves to be if it weren’t for him? Like if I didn’t have him? I don’t know what I’ve done. I probably would have crumbled.
Faysal
no, I think. I’m so happy to hear that because
that level of support network to someone that you’re very close to who will
give you that reassurance, it can save lives, you know. Sometimes when people, you know
contemplate what suicide is like or anything like that. But you know, sometimes when you’re in the dark space,
that’s what it takes is to start with sometimes just that reassuring voice to help drag you out of there. And obviously, you know, a mentorship. It’s not necessarily designed to get people out of dark places. But it’s, it’s, it’s important that it nudges you in the right direction. So that you don’t necessarily get into a dark space, you know, lining up then you know, your life will be a will seem better for you and hopefully, you know, you will, you will move forward. And with that, you know, I think I recently you know, looked into this I’m sure I’ve mentioned this to you before, you know I put an advert out within, you know, the African youth community in London, and also the You know, in Dubai where I worked briefly previously and said, You know, I’m offering an internship for my digital marketing company, dynamic digital, just do a plug in there. And now I’ve had a couple of responses that I’ve started now to work with this young kid with a black kid who’s went to a university in North London, where I, where I live, and he’s now studying and a university in Sharjah, just outside of Dubai, and he’s only 20 years old, and you just sometimes just see a little bit of yourself in the person and I know, I can teach him something professionally and that you can help him ask any questions he has and, you know, that might be some way I can contribute and hopefully, karma will bless us back in some way or form.
Tamara Fraser
Yeah, that’s amazing. I think that’s really good. Okay,
Faysal
so one thing I was going to ask you Tamara. My question is, you mentioned something interesting earlier, about your younger self. So if you were younger self mentorship advice specifically
to your 20-year-old self. What would you say to that person? To the young Tamara?
Tamara Fraser
Oh, wow. You know what, it’s funny, I actually wanted to write two letters to myself. And I will do it at some point this year, maybe now’s the best time to do it, as you know, we’re in, well we’re not necessarily in quarantine any more. But one would have been to my younger self, and then another one to my older self, like something that I would read 10 years from now. But I think for my younger self, it is all about you know, self-love. And as I said, I was a very confused 20 years old. I was, moving through life, not exactly knowing what I wanted to do where I want to be and I think it’s just recently that I’m kind of finding out my, my purpose, and my path in life. And I think when you’re young, and you don’t have those things, like when you can’t figure those things out, it’s scary. It is, you know, I always wake up every morning, am I going to feel miserable for the rest of my life, not knowing what I want to do, you know, and I think my message to my younger self would just be, just enjoy your life. take it one step at a time, relax, and you’ll figure it out, it’ll eventually come to you and I’m a firm believer of things will come to you in its own time when it thinks you are ready. I’m all about manifestation and the power of the universe and things happening for a reason and things happening at their own time. I think a lot of things. In my younger years when they happened, I always kind of played the victim and, you know, why is this happening to me? You know, the universe is laughing at me and all this crap. And now I don’t approach life like that at all. Like, why is this happening to me? I always look at the lesson in things. What is this trying to teach me? How is this helping me grow into a person? I think that is why I’ve had a lot of self-growth in the last couple of years is because I’ve changed my way of thinking. And I want to encourage my, my younger self to, to not be feel victimized by anything and to really look at the deeper meaning in everything that was happening to me at that moment,
Faysal
I think is beautiful. And, you know, it’s, it’s amazing that you had the opportunity to learn that and understand that now. Because, you know, another positive is that not many people get to learn that and some people learn what you know, now when they’re 40 or 50. You know, so give yourself credit that you went on this journey. And you learn that. And you know, it’s beautiful. I like that. And, and it’s not easy is it? our 20s, our late teens, there were not easy weather like, we’re, we’re just where we are. And it’s not just us. You know, a lot of young people are so lost, I think of kids as a blank canvas. And they come into this world full of ideas and possibilities, and they get molded by all of this. Things projected onto them by society that they just become, too They just lose the innocence and they lose the beauty.
Tamara Fraser
I agree. And I think I was also in a position where I wasn’t born in America. You know, I was born in Guyana and I moved to New York when I was seven. or eight years old. And not only that I was moved in the middle of December, you know, moving from a Caribbean country to December in New York. Do you know what that was like? Cold. It was the blizzard of 96 it was snowing. It was so bad. On top of that, because it was December I started school I started in third grade in the middle of the school year, not even the beginning of the school year. You know, I spoke different English people thought I was Jamaican. I was like, I don’t sound anything Jamaican. And, and, you know, I had to just pick things up. And you know, what I hated most was when we’d have to read the textbooks and, everyone sounds American and they’re, they’re reading in their English and then they’d come to me and certain words I couldn’t pronounce and I don’t even think my teacher like she was harsh. She was such a bitch. I’m gonna be honest. She was harsh, and I mean for a seven-eight-year-old child. I just moved to this country, it is a culture shock for me, she really just didn’t care. You know, and, and so I’ve grown up in that, like, I was self-taught throughout my life. Like I had to teach myself, you know, change how I spoke, you know, teach myself to read certain words. I remember the first time I went to a pool in New York, and I just jumped in and almost drowned because I didn’t actually know how to swim. I taught myself how to swim. Like I literally was self. I was self-taught throughout my life. But that’s hard. Because it’s like, I’m like, you’re trying to figure it out one step at a time. And by the time I got to my 20s, I was exhausted. I was so exhausted. I didn’t know what I wanted. It’s like, now I know what I want. But, I’m still teaching myself. I’m still trying to figure it out.
Faysal
Well, that’s absolutely alright and you know it credit to you and, and the tenacity and the spirit of, of human beings that you know, you pick yourself up and teach yourself things and you teach yourself how to learn and adapt to environments and, and better you surf on the reality of things you’ve done amazing. I think that’s, that’s an amazing worry, you know, you haven’t had it easy compared to your peers obviously, who had the same upbringing the same language and culture and etc. And you’ve you gotta look back and just say, you know, wow, I know what you’ve achieved and, and some it could have been so easy to fall through the cracks, you know, to be another statistic.
A credit to your mom also any parents who I’m sure play the role in shaping you and you know, your international traveling business professional who lived around the globe and worked in multinational companies. You’ve done a lot for yourself. And I think all of us when we look back at our younger selves, you know, we want to cry for them. And that’s a human thing. And it’s normal because the world is tough. The world can be cruel. And, and to think of your younger self just, you know, scared or insecure or not really feeling comfortable in their skin. That’s, that’s tough. That’s tough, you know, because, you know, it’s not easy and but you know, credit to you, you made it.
Tamara Fraser
we both made it. We both had to go through that moving from one country to another in complete shock. And I think we’ve done pretty well for ourselves, and we’ve come a long way.
Faysal
Yes, absolutely. No good on you.
Tamara Fraser
Thank you so much for being a part of it. It means the world to me, honestly, and I know you know, welI hope we can share more conversations like this because I love the conversations that we have. Yes.
Faysal
Awesome. Thank you, Tamara, lovely to speak to you.
Tamara Fraser
Outro